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  1. #1


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    In booking our Morocco hotels and riads and such, several want us to give our credit card number and all the information over email.

    I do not believe this is safe and I am not sure about the phone either ( although I did do that with one who asked this as it seemed safer than email).

    One place is having internet problems at the moment and so far we have been unable to connect by phone with a clear enough connection to give it that way.

    She suggested giving the information split between two emails. I am not sure if that is safe either.

    Does anyone know the facts on what is safe or where I can find this information? Any ideas on how to handle this? I really need to make this final today.

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2


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    In booking our Morocco hotels and riads and such, several want us to give our credit card number and all the information over email.

    I do not believe this is safe and I am not sure about the phone either ( although I did do that with one who asked this as it seemed safer than email).

    One place is having internet problems at the moment and so far we have been unable to connect by phone with a clear enough connection to give it that way.

    She suggested giving the information split between two emails. I am not sure if that is safe either.

    Does anyone know the facts on what is safe or where I can find this information? Any ideas on how to handle this? I really need to make this final today.

    Thanks in advance!

  3. #3
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    I was just going to ask this question myself, as we have had the same thing with dealing directly with some of the smaller Paris hotels. It is a golden rule in our house that no information like that is given out through an unsecured site or through open email/ Obviously, a lot of people are happy with the situation, or the hotels woudl not be able to continue the practice. I have now made a reservation with one who had a secured section on their site - ie initial availability enquiries were done through open email, then personal details and credit card confirmation through the secured part. It was one on my short list, so it helped to make the final choice. I, too, would love to know other peoples experience/thoughts.

  4. #4
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    We have a credit card with a small limit - A$1000 - on it for all internet transactions. We prefer secure sites but as it is a small amount we will pay a rental deposit with it and use another card when we arrive.
    It has worked so far and hopefully in the future as we are about to travel again in May.
    Jill

  5. #5
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">She suggested giving the information split between two emails. I am not sure if that is safe either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Lisa, we do this all the time with no ill effects. The likelihood of two messages being intercepted is almost totally unlikely.

  6. #6


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    Thanks Jane,
    That is what I wanted to hear. I have had no experience with this.

  7. #7


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    Hello,
    Personally I wouldn't divulge this information via the internet, even splitting the information seems risky.
    I prefer telephoning the named person I have been dealing with or even, posting details by prior arrangement.
    I am aware that there is no foolproof method, we are at the mercy of whomsoever we are trusting this sensitive infromation to.
    Wendy

  8. #8


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    My husband runs an internet security business,and believe me there are programs out there which monitor all network traffic so two emails are really no safer than one if the network is open. We never give any usable detail in an email. Although I am not sure how banks would view this, if it was intercepted they may refuse to pay as email is not an accepted safe medium for financial detail.
    As an aside,only this week it was shown clearly to me how easily email is sent to somenoe other than the intended recipient. A colleague of my husband has been off long term sick and all his emails are being re directed.....not all his contacts know this,so an email containing gossip and unflattering comment went to another person and caused a big personnel issue. You cannot ever be certain a redirect is not in place so I learned a big lesson from this!!!so imagine a redirect which cintained personal info?

  9. #9


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    So couldn't it also be intercepted from a cell phone? I know I have heard detail conversations of other peoples phone calls totally by accident.

    Are there any FOOL PROOF ways?

    What do you do when you need to book something and there are no secure sites?

    It would be hard for me to get a special credit card at this point in time just for these kind of things which I will not even use much. It is a good idea for others.

    That does not help with this particular B&B that I need to book today and can not reach them by phone so far.

    I decided to send it in 3 emails and hope it works. I do not feel comfortable with it, but I can not chance losing this place since it is high season and it was hard to get it in the first place.

    ( It books up fast because it is number one in Trip Advisor in that area and great rating with i-escape and Sawdays). I found it thru i-escape but it is not set up in a more secure way like the rest of their places ( or the ones I booked).

    I usually just avoid places that will not let me pay securely, but sometimes it seems unavoidable.

    I am looking for any solutions when in a situation like this that is as fool proof as possible.

    Obviously tons of people are booking like this and have for years. Does anyone know the percentage of people that get burned. How risky exactly is this? How much more risky is it than giving it over the phone?

  10. #10
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    Of course there are always risks but I equate the fear of interception of multiple e-mails with the fear of traveling by air. There are times when that fear turns out to be right but it doesn't stop most of us from taking the risk--knowing that the likelihood of something happening is teeny. I prefer the e-mail route to faxes (which are there for anyone in an office to see) or phones which, as you say Lisa, can cross wires.

  11. #11
    WT, I really don't think it's worth worrying about. How many times do you hand your CC to a complete stranger who you'll never see again?

    Think of every time you've used your CC. Almost every merchant, large or small, has that info on a computer that is linked to the internet. Someone trying to steal CC numbers is going to go after the motherload, they are not likely to expend their efforts on stealing one CC at a time.

    There is no one on earth who is going to spend their lives intercepting the millions of cellphone calls every day in an effort to steal $1500.
    Assuming the worst case scenario where you get unauthorized charges, your CC company will just wipe them out.

    pete

  12. #12
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    We just had a discussion about this over in the Italy forum:

    Sending Credit Card Information Securely

    Maybe that has some other info you can use.

  13. #13


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    I don't think there are any foolproof ways but email is a particularly risky one, banks/CC would not be happy to reimburse for funds which go astray. Although they do do so if it happens when you buy via telephone,so obviously they differentiate the risk. Which to those who work in the business is known to be a lot more common than a plane crash just not as widely advertised!!
    Using a landline is safer than email or cell phone but not always available esp when travelling.
    I would not pay via email.

  14. #14


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    Thanks Jane,Pete and Kim. That is helpful. I am not use to this, so do not want to make a serious goof.

  15. #15


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    WT,I too was trying to be helpful but it was not what you wanted to hear and I understand that. I hope your transaction is done and nothing untoward occurs, the liklihood is that it won't but the risk is there. My litmus test would be to ask your own bank/CC whether they would advise this or cover any losses. Mine dont. As TimW(he obviously also has some encryption knowledge) said on the Italy forum, there are ways around it but they are not widely known and a little cumbersome.

  16. #16


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    Before Paypal, I used this splittting of the credit card number over 2 emails all the time to pay for purchases on Ebay. My husband the Computer Jock told me to separate the 2 emails by atl least an hour to increase the chance that the 2 emails do not go through the same router. I have also sent one email from my home computer and the second from my work computer to increase the chances that different routers and different people handle the 2 emails.
    The only times I have had fraudelant charges on my credit cards was when I had used the card in person and I presume that the clerk later put through additional charges later on a day I know thast I was not in the store, and I presume kept the money.

  17. #17


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    Perhaps there is a cultural differnce but Poet is right over here we are advised MOST strongly not to send sensitive data without a secure server.
    I use email for everything I possibly can but I wouldn't send my cc details that way.
    Wendy

  18. #18

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    Hola,

    I do pretty much all of my payments by direct transfer into the persons account. And I accept payments (90 percent)that way as well.

    If you have internet banking all you need is the account number or IBAN of the hotel and you just transfer the cash with a note in the form saying it is you and what it is for. Then email them to tell them to look out for your money.

    Clive

  19. #19


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    I split mine and also send them using 2 different email accounts (letting them know this beforehand). I then send the expiration date in a 3rd email - one of the same 2 accounts. It has worked for me. I also ask them to not put the email numbers in the email they send back to me confirming my reservation. That however does not always work.

  20. #20


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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do pretty much all of my payments by direct transfer into the persons account. And I accept payments (90 percent)that way as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Although I would send my credit card number in 2 emails to cover a deposit, I would Never give out those routing numbers on my bank and the account to pay for a tranaction overseas. I have stopped using checks for normal retail transactions to limit the number of people that have them. I use a debit card instead. My last checking account, someone had those two sets of numbers and jsut printed up checks for themselves with those numbersand started writing checks on my account. becaseu I look at my account online often, we caught them before they did much damage.
    Now the only people who have those numbers are my employer, Brokerage Houses, and my credit card company for paying my bill online.

  21. #21


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    I think there are two issues here and it is dependent on how much information you send. Credit card number alone - probably not too much of an issue. Credit card number + valid dates - Dodgy. Credit card number, dates and security code - Whoops !

    The main issue is who covers any loss. I am fairly sure that my CC provider would suggest that sending information across unencrypted email would constitute an unacceptable risk, and therefore would not cover any resultant fraud.

    Tim

  22. #22

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    Hola,

    I had an issue last year with someone that I needed to pay and they wanted my Debit card number, expiry date and three digit security number.

    I said "no way, you give me your bank account number and IBAN and I will transfer the money right now.

    They said. "Sorry I can't give you my bank number because it's not safe over the internet.....". Well that made me chuckle...

    As far as I am aware no one can do anything bad with just an IBAN or account number. Which is all you need to be able to transfer money directly from your bank account to theirs.

    Clive

  23. #23
    Why not use fax?

  24. #24


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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> WT,I too was trying to be helpful but it was not what you wanted to hear and I understand that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Poet123,

    I am sorry, I did not mean to exclude you or anyone. I am grateful for yours and all the comments here as they are ALL helpful and I am trying to learn what I can.

    I was just replying fast, have a lot on my plate at the moment and a bouncing 6yo yammering as I try to write.

    What I suppose I meant was, it was a relief to hear positive reports from people who had done it before many times without any problem.

    Since I have no choice here ( every place is booked up because of spring vacations in Europe and there are more people who want to be there than hotels in this city) and have committed lots of money to the rest of my trip, I was indeed happy to hear some positive past experiences.

    BUT I also am interested in hearing EVERY view and good piece of information on this topic. Yours was particularly useful because your husband is in the security business.

    So thanks one and ALL!

  25. #25
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As far as I am aware no one can do anything bad with just an IBAN or account number. Which is all you need to be able to transfer money </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    just to throw my usual five cents here; go to Interpol and ask for code 419. then you will know the above is not good to give out either.

  26. #26
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    I had to use bank transfer for a rental in Italy last year - it was an expensive service from the UK and wouldn't have been appropriate for the Paris hotels problem , as they only needed the details for a first night guarantee in case I didn't turn up and didn't cancel in time. Fax: I don't know of anyone who uses it in a domestic setting here - I could go to the slightly dodgy newsagents in town and use theirs , telling the hotel not to use it as a return address but I'd rather not. When I had to use it for a rental once, my husband had to use his office one, at the other end of the building from his office, then lurk around waiting for a confirmation. (We also have an internet only card, and have experienced fraud 3 times - not on that one but on my husband's corporate card, which is used all over the world).

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Fax: I don't know of anyone who uses it in a domestic setting here </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    If you can get your computer to send an e-mail, it could also send text as a FAX.

  28. #28
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    Re Fax: Well, the things you learn here! I did a quick search about faxes from pc's - possible and I'm sure very useful, but seems to need software that we don't have. Also, our home network administrator (ie my husband) is several time zones away at the moment. It really isn't a thing I would use much, though I suppose that's twice I could have made use of it for travel purposes. Fax seems to have stayed much more popular on Continental Europe than the UK - we did have a machine pre-internet. Is it the same thing as sending paper to paper in terms of safety ?

  29. #29


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    How many of you refuse to use a credit card in a restaurant,hotel, or shop for purchases? There are the 3 most dangerous places where the card at times may be out of your sight. On the internet it is far less likely to create a problem. So far I have send the info at least 50 times without trouble. RR

  30. #30


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    As has been said it is not the threat of fraud which deters my usage of CC details via internet BUT the fact such fraud would not be covered by the card issuer as email is not considered a secure mode of communication. Whilst phone transactions and buyer present transactions are both fully recoverable.

    Now I may personally not know too much about internet security but I bow to the banks on this issue. So as I would not be happy to cover any losses I will not use it. To those who do I assume you are quite happy to cover such losses? or believe your bank would act differently to mine? Perhaps it would be wise to check?

    The number of times you have used this method without incident is not really relevant....I had used my debit card thousands of times before it was cloned but it did happen and I got my money back. Another issue with email and fax is how do you know who is retaining/printing off the info,selling on the PC with recoverable details on the hard drive etc etc. Once an email has gone it floats around forever, as many politicians have found to their cost!!!!

  31. #31
    Well, it's probably safer and less risky not to travel at all. Certainly cheaper.

    I gather that each one of us has her or his own preferences for handling financial transactions at a distance. Willingness to take risk vs desire for convenience is largely what it comes down to.

    Guys, remember here that no one is casting aspersions on our children (or even worse, our pets)! .

  32. #32
    I did check, as I think many others have also. I notice that poet123 list the UK as your location. In the US, Federal Law limits a person's liability to a maximum of $50. This is for a US issued card, regardless of where used.

    In reality, my CC issuer guarantees to cover me for 100% of any fraudulent transaction as long as I report it within 60 days of my statement date. They further guarantee that my account will be credited within 24 hours of my reporting the fraud.

    pete

  33. #33


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    Marian as you say or imply it is not life and death but simply a matter of opinion,which is why we are debating the issue.

    Peter

    We have similar guarantees in the UK BUT to use email would fall outside the remit of those guarantees as it is not considered a secure mode for financial transactions. Hence it would be "negligent" and would not be reimbursed. If you have checked that your guarantees apply specifically to email transactions then obviously it is a UK/European issue and I stand corrected!! Maybe we should all get US accounts,which bank are you with? I would love to have this facility without consequence.

  34. #34
    US law makes no distinction. It would, in fact, be difficult to determine how the CC number and info was acquired. How would someone prove that the guy in Nigeria using my CC got it from intercepting an email as opposed to buying it through a waiter?

    pete

  35. #35


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    As you say it would be difficult but not impossible to prove. In our area a large fraud was uncovered by the banks and all those affected were contacted. Because the amounts were small some people had not realised they had lost money.but their email transactions were used to show they had given unsecured info and they were not reimbursed. My friend was a bank employee working on the case.obviously these incidents are not widely reported.
    I suppose in the absence of evidence or adnmision of email usage then you should be safe enough,but it is not advisable.

  36. #36
    I think WT is a US citizen, and I'll guess has a US issued card. So, there's no need for concern except for the $50.

    pete

  37. #37
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    Poet, is that a recent ruling regarding e-mailing? This BBC News Article from 2005, states similar rules to the US (a 50 pound limit) and doesn't mention an exception for people who sent their credit card number via e-mail.

    As a matter of fact, this article doesn't even mention fraud of credit card numbers attained via e-mail in it's statistics. It still seems getting them by letting the card out of your site in a restaurant/store is more prevelant.

    Wow, this article has 1 in 3 people in Birmingham as being the victims of fraud, but most of those, through the mail, not through the Internet.

    But then again, according to this, the UK seems to be the capital for credit card fraud, so perhaps you're more sensitive to the issue than the rest of us.

  38. #38


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    Kim,

    Those are interesting links but we have moved on in the UK and we now have chip and pin which the banks believe to be foolproof, so in most cases of fraud using C/P they refuse to pay as they assert the customer must have been negligent and disclosed the pin.

    There was a recent "watchdog"programme which proved it was possible to defraud the system by chip and pin but still the banks would not reimburse the customers.

    Also as per capita more Brits have a CC than US citizens (Similar to the low passport holder ratio)it would seem logical we have more fraud,although it just could be that we are better at reporting it or more vigilant. It also makes sense to me that we should plug every unecessary avenue (such as email usage) of transmission of confidential info whilst still utilising CC to the full.

  39. #39
    why not go to Kinko's (or the equivalent) and fax it.

  40. #40
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    Refering to a some replies a little earlier about hotels and rentals requiring cc numbers.....they also request the 3 digit security number on the back of the card. And if you won't give it, they won't except the reservation!! I was required to give this for all our rentals/hotels last year that required a deposit or that were paid in full a month or two in advance by the same credit card. This was required whether done via the internet or by fax.

    Luckily no issues, but what else is one supposed to do??

    Linda

  41. #41
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Refering to a some replies a little earlier about hotels and rentals requiring cc numbers.....they also request the 3 digit security number on the back of the card </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I have never been asked for the security code when doing the e-mail split routine. Sometimes when a business has a secured server, it is asked for but that is different.

    I guess with what Poet123 is saying about the UK, they are no longer allowed to buy things over the net even with a secured server as the chip could not be used for that. That would be a real pain--I am surprised that the growing internet retailers have not put up a fuss.

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    No, Jane we are allowed to buy through a secured server, but the security code from the back is needed when you are not there in person: either on the telephone or through the internet. I do a lot of transactions online but always thru' a secured server - it is something that is made a big deal of here, which is why I had aversion to open e mail with the Paris hotels - although, as I said, I chose one who did have a secured site in the end. Chip & Pin is in lieu of a signature when you are there in person - it has cut fraud dramatically, though naturally there are now stories about how it is being circumvented. The criminals will always be up for the challenge.

  43. #43
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Those are interesting links but we have moved on in the UK and we now have chip and pin which the banks believe to be foolproof, so in most cases of fraud using C/P they refuse to pay as they assert the customer must have been negligent and disclosed the pin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Actually, that second article was after chip and pin technology and while it noted a 5% drop in fraud due to chip and pin, many sectors have seen a dramatic rise. The third article was from last week, also well after Chip and Pin.

    Now this article in last summer's Telegraph (august 06), also states the 50 pound liability with no mention of not beling allowed to send it by e-mail. It does state you shouldn't do something irresponsible like write your pin number down on your card and that you must report the card stolen within 24 hours, if it goes missing but I can't find anything about an e-mail stipulation. I do see a comment in the APACS guidelines about using your card responsibly but that seems like a general catch-all and if every individual had to prove that, well, it seems no one could ever prove that they should be re-imbursed.

    Hmm...and on Capitol One's UK site, they talk about fraud prevention and coverage but again, I see nothing about not covering specific fraudulent transactions maybe they have that in the fine print somewhere but it could be worth a call for you, since there guidelines for covering fraud seem more inline with US banks.

  44. #44


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    This is a good question. Nothing is 100% safe. It is better to use tools like Moneynetand using secured transactions, but the person you pay should have an account.

    I don't know if sending an email is worst than giving the number on the phone or even sending by fax. My CC was copied obviously right in front of me when paying for gas, and I didn't notice it. Store employees compare signatures on your card vs your signature doesn't mean anything at all, because once the band is copied, the new person signs with her regular signature the false card, so no difference can be found when he/she is signing in a store.

    Sending by regular fax can be dangerous as well, since you don't know how many people share the fax at the other end, nor for how long your letter will remain by the fax or printer. Not to talk aboutmaking a mistake in a long number and sending to a wrong destinator. Travel agencies often use the fax and phone still to make reservations.

    I would say the risk is higher for fax, phone and email (assuming you trust the person at the other end) because you never know how this info is filed, stored or manipulated.

    While shopping often using Internet, many stores and other commerce use more of secured tools, even through banks, etc... This is the best for everyone: you can trace the transaction without giving unincripted info to anyone. As those accounts are getting cheaper or even free in some cases, hopefully agencies and particulars will be using this more and more.

  45. #45


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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kim:
    [QUOTE]
    I do see a comment in the APACS guidelines about using your card responsibly but that seems like a general catch-all and if every individual had to prove that, well, it seems no one could ever prove that they should be re-imbursed.

    Hmm...and on Capitol One's UK site, they talk about fraud prevention and coverage but again, I see nothing about not covering specific fraudulent transactions maybe they have that in the fine print somewhere but it could be worth a call for you, since there guidelines for covering fraud seem more inline with US banks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The general terms and conditions referring to "using your card responsibly" is exactly the clause under which UK banks would refuse to reimburse if you admitted/it was found to be the case that you had disclosed confidential details via email. On all banking sites there are warnings that email is not secure, therefore by sending information via this method you would be deemed negligent. Maybe the US system is different and the concept of negligence does not apply as it does in the UK,several other UK residents have confirmed that this is the accepted norm in the UK.

    It has become increasingly difficult to reclaim money from the banks in the UK because they consider chip and pin to be foolproof, and that anyone who accesses your account this way had inside knowledge. By their reasoning you MUST have been negligent. Obviously I am not saying this is correct only that this is what happens under UK banking procedures,regardless of what the banking code says. Customers only have the ultimate redress of the Financial Ombudsman to try to get satisfaction,and this is a long drawn out process.

    Although I would actually be surprised if you asked a US bank the direct question

    "Do you consider sending financial information via email to be secure?"followed by

    "if so can you guarantee I would be reimbursed for any losses arising from any such transaction"?that they would answer in the affirmative.

    Therefore the bottom line is if somenone is happy to take a risk knowing that,that is their perogative BUT if something untoward occurs then they should not seek to reclaim monies but take personal responsibility for their choices.

  46. #46
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but take personal responsibility for their choices. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I think that is the MO of most ST folk. You don't think that to be true?

    You have not answered bymy not use a chip. Panda said you can still do that but from what you are saying, that is not true as the chip is not used.

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    Jane,
    I am not sure what you mean? we use chip and pin in the UK for all tranactions now, the chip is embedded in the card and is read at point of sale by a machine,if the pin you enter matches the one registerd to the card the sale proceeds, if not it is halted. Via phone the 3 digit security number on the reverse of the card is asked for and "buyer not present"appears on your receipt. The banks contend that if a sale goes through using a chip and pin card then you must have either used it yourself,or given someone else the pin, or written it down or compromised security some other way (by email for example!)

    With regard to taking personal responsibilty...my experience is it is common to want to blame someone else if you are the victim of fraud, rather than maybe looking at whether your own actions could have invited it. No one who has said they routinely use email for financial details has actually said they would bear any such losses. Of course this argument holds no water if in the US banks consider email secure and would honour any losses. Here in the UK we know if we use this method we would lose our money, so we generally don't do it!!!

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by poet123:
    With regard to taking personal responsibilty...my experience is it is common to want to blame someone else if you are the victim of fraud, rather than maybe looking at whether your own actions could have invited it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I think we can blame the person who commits the crime! If most of us saw an open unattended purse on a table, our thought would not be to take the wallet.

    In Santa Fe we are starting to read about thieves who break in a car window and take a purse. Up until recently, this was the kind of town where you could leave your purse in your car. But not any longer.

  49. #49
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In Santa Fe we are starting to read about thieves who break in a car window and take a purse. Up until recently, this was the kind of town where you could leave your purse in your car. But not any longer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Pauline, I love it where we are now--don't even lock our doors when we go away--but there aren't many places like this left in the world--sad to say.

  50. #50
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">On all banking sites there are warnings that email is not secure, therefore by sending information via this method you would be deemed negligent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I guess that's my point, no where in the research I have done, have I found an instance where a bank has denied refunds based upon this example - perhaps if you could post a link to your source?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> It has become increasingly difficult to reclaim money from the banks in the UK because they consider chip and pin to be foolproof, and that anyone who accesses your account this way had inside knowledge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yet again, even the links to the recent articles I posted give no indication of this. As a matter of fact, they say while fraud has been reduced at point of sale due to the new technology other areas it has increased (particularly phishing e-mails up over 1000%), yet nothing I read indicates a bank will hold the card owner responsible.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> With regard to taking personal responsibilty...my experience is it is common to want to blame someone else if you are the victim of fraud, rather than maybe looking at whether your own actions could have invited it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>This reminds me of the provacative dress argument used by defense lawyers in rape cases ... but to stay on point, all I'm saying is if you're stating that once you send your credit card via e-mail, your bank will no longer adhere to anti-fraud policies and re-imburse you after the initial 50 pound loss, as I've noted in two different links, because of your own negligent behavior, that you substantiate by pointing to where that can be found as direct fact or clarify whether that's your own interpretation of the guidelines posted by the banks and not something that is absolute law. Otherwise, you're really creating a lot of "the sky is falling" over nothing.

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